LOVEWON - A website that tells of Christ's triumphant victory over Death
Luke 2:10-11 And the messenger said to them(the shepherds) "Fear not, for lo! I am Bringing you an evangel of great joy which will be for the entire people, for today was brought forth to you a saviour, who is Christ, the Lord, in the city of David
This website is about God's unconditional Love for you - dear reader
I've been a believer in God for 40 years this summer 2003 but only in the last 2 years has the full revelation of just what God has done has been made know to me
let's start with my testimony
I was brought up in a "Christian" home
we were taught values about what was right and wrong - but I feared my father - and I actually can't remember a lot about my time growing up - except to say it was punctuated by "disciplining" - which basically meant I got a wack with a slipper for walking in front of the TV or talking or pretty much anything that annoyed my Dad
I want to say right now, that I don't blame my Dad for this - even he would say he was wrong to do what he did - but the point of telling you this is to help you to understand how I saw God
I thought God was ready to beat me up if I got it wrong
So I lived a life of trying to believe right and think right and do right and I always failed sooner of later - so I would be frightened that God was not my saviour because I was bad
God was presented as a "God of Wrath" by some preachers but that he did it all "in Love" God was supposed to be Love, but if you didn't believe aright you'd go to "hell", a place we were told of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place that was horrible and painful and that this punishment and torment would last "forever"
God would Judge us and his judgment was severe unless we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were saved - but if you were saved, don't forget you have to be baptised - and live right and give one tenth of all you earn to the church and love others - except the church down the road where they had loads of wrong doctrines and of cause all those who worship false Gods even though we had to love everyone, we weren't to mix with everyone because we weren't to become tainted by them and we mustn't swear or have sex before marriage and of course there was always the "sin against the holy spirit" if you did that, then it would have been better that you where never born! and of course if you did sin against the holy spirit you couldn't be saved.
A good friend of mine calls this "spiritual abuse", where believers mix a bit of truth with what they think is right and call it biblical.
Does any of this sound familiar - dear reader?
Or perhaps you don't know or care much about God - many of my friends and associates don't - some say - "when you're dead your dead... that's it" others say they simply don't believe still others do have other faiths - I have another friend who is a muslim
of course I also have friends and associates who I've never found out what they believe about God, Hell, Life after death, Love, Judgment and so on.
So, you ask what's happened to you? what changed and what do you think of God now?
What's changed is I have heard scriptures that had never been preached to me - or if they had they were explained away and each of these scriptures speak about
Unconditional LOVE
OK Ready :-)
"We rely on the living God who is saviour of all men - especially of those who believe. these things be charging and teaching" 1 Timothy 4 V 10 - 11
"For this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth." 1 Timothy 2 v 3 and 4
"For in him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on earth or those in the heavens." Colossians 1 v 19 and 20.
Wherefore also God highly exalts Him and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Phil. 2 v 9-11.
(Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His Presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.) 1 Corinthians 15 V 20-28
The Lord is not tardy as to the promise(see 2 Peter 3 v 4) as some are deeming tardiness, but is patient because of you, not intending any to perish but all to make room for repentance. 2 Peter 3 v 9
From the verses above you may begin to see something - first that God is saving or has saved All, also that all will one day bow to Jesus and acclaim Jesus as Lord and finally something of the plan of God - that Christ Undid what was lost in Adam that Christ was dead but is now alive - that believers will be raised and finally that all will be raised at the consummation (the end of time), I added the last reference because well meaning Christians like the one I write about below, think that we can't all be saved because of verses like Luke 13 v 3 ".. if you should not be repenting, you all shall likewise be perishing," for this verse to be true (and it is) and 1 Tim 4 V 10 above to be true (and it is) we should realise that all will repent - but in case our doctrine doesn't let us believe that, then 2 Pet. 3 v 9 tells us that this is exactly what God has planned!
Why does traditional Christian belief have a problem with this?
I have just been sent a document sent to me by a pastor friend of mine a man I love dearly more than he realizes I think. he sent me an article written in the "May/June 2003 issue of Ministry Today" the Article entitled "Doctrine of Demons" by David Shibley, implies that the verses just quoted above aren't in the Bible because, whilst the article doesn't refer to any of them, the article opens with the statement "why the so-called gospel of inclusion touted by some leaders today is really no gospel at all - just a new spin on an old heresy seeking to infect the church"
So the writer here is effectively saying that....
a) this is a gospel of inclusion - yes he is right so far.
b) that it's being touted by some leaders today - I certainly hope these verses are being preached because they should be, as all scripture should be. 2 Tim 3 v 16/17 "All scripture is inspired by God and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness, that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act."
c) ..is really no gospel at all - why not(?) - it seems to me to be a part of the gospel which well meaning or maybe not so well meaning ministers for some reason want to pretend is not there.
d) just a spin on an old heresy... (Heresy means it's not in the bible but it's being preached as if it is) sorry David, wrong again. as shown in the scriptures above.
e) ..seeking to infect the church. - I've been a believer for a long time as I said above and I want real bible based teaching to "infect" the church. I don't want a gospel which revolves around a few verses cobbled together by man made ideas and false doctrines
David starts his 3500 word piece by telling us about the a man who preached a message called "sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" who it seems started something which he calls a "Great awakening" he then continues the derogatory remarks by referring to "creeping universalism" again without saying either what is wrong with universalism or why it is "creeping"
I'm going to skip over most of what David says and address the scripture references that he uses to support what he claims to be a "Doctrine of Demons" in the 3500 word article, he only uses 19 scripture references to support his position - I will look at the rest of what David says but I will also spend some time considering his scripture support references since what he wants to show is that "universal reconcilliation" and the salvation of all is unbiblical and heretical
In the second paragraph David talks about Hell, without saying what he believes about hell, so lets talk about hell shall we(?)
Firstly the english word hell has changed meaning through use - at the time the word hell was used in the King James Version of the bible it simply meant "to cover over" webster's dictionary confirms this "to conceal", hell if translated from Hades, which literally means, Un-seen or imperceptible and therefore all of the torment traditions fire and devils world descriptions, have been applied to hell, by mixing up terms applying pagan ideas and misunderstanding - hell(Hades) isn't the lake of fire either, Hades is eventually cast into the lake of fire Rev. 20 v 14.
Nor is it Gehenna or the ravine of Hinnom where murders bodies where thrown and where fires burned and worms didn't die (Mark 9 v 44 and 45) - worms didn't die, because they always had something to feed on - always that is until Gehenna was not used for that anymore - as today in fact - the fire wasn't extinguished because it went out, when there was nothing more to burn, as indeed any fire would if it ran out of fuel, (correct(?))
I should say that the valley of Hinnom is a valley in the South of Jerusalem.
David claims that preaching on Hell has all but disappeared and then associates hell with heaven by saying "teaching on heaven and hell has been silenced in most pulpits." whether intentionally or accidentally made, the suggestion of this phrase is that heaven is the opposite of hell - I often hear preachers implying or saying that you either spend an "eternity" in one or the other.
here again there is a problem between what tradition is teaching and what the bible actually says.
I'm going to move to the scripture references because they after all should prove one way or the other whether this is heresy or not.
Here are the parts of the article which contain scripture references I shall quote them, together with what David Shibley claims is being shown by them.
Reference #1
begin quote
Paul warned of a day "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thes. 1: 7-8, NKJV). Take sober note of what he says next: "these shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (v. 9). No amount of theological spin can make those words say anything else. In the original Greek "everlasting destruction" means everlasting Destruction!
end quote
I will start with David's last point before getting into the content of this whole verse
in Greek the english words "everlasting destruction" are actually "aionian = Un-If-being" "olothreuo = WHOLE-RUIN" which would better be transliterated/translated "eonian extermination"
eonian does NOT mean everlasting - there are many verses which use this same word where it is clear from the context that eonian does not mean everlasting and where the translators have used a different english word here are some examples in Hebrews 9 v 26 we read "...He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice is manifest"
note the phrase "conclusion of the eons" in some versions eon here is translated world - but if David is going to appeal to the Greek then let everyone know that the eons have an end .
Romans 16 v 25 says "now to him who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all the nations for faith-obedience- to the only, and wise God, through Christ Jesus, be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen."
In this scripture not only do we see that there where "times eonian" past tence, but that God is God of all eons "eonian God" and that again there are eons of eons so we see that these eons are time periods and that they have a beginning and an end.
just as also seen in 1 Cor 15 v 24 "consumation" means finish - everlasting however doesn't finish so is David right and the NKJV right, or is the Greek right as David also asserts - Titus 1 v 9 says we should "expose those who contradict" this perfectly describes what David Shibley has done he has contradicted - and I have exposed him.
If David had unwitingly formed his doctrinal views because of the mis-interperation in the NKJV that could have been more easily explained - but to appeal to the "Greek" either shows stupidity or a desire to deceive, because I have to ask did he even look at the Greek,
further study on the word eon can be found here "http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/forever2.htm"
and what of the rest of this scripture - it speaks of Judgment and chastisment and destruction (more on destruction below) of those unbelievers but not what there final destiny is - these verses are a snapshot. lets say I was introduced to a man today, unknown to me this man has served time in Prison and been punished for a crime that he once comited but now he has served his time and is free - he stands before me as someone beyond his crime and his punishment for that crime - so it will be one day for those who are unbeleivers.
Let's move on to the next quote from David
Reference #2
Begin quote
The Roots of Heresy
The roots of universalism go back to the Garden of Eden, when the serpent convinced Adam and Eve not to obey God's warning of death for disobedience. " 'has God indeed said...? " the serpent asked (Gen 3:1). Then, in defiance of God's assertion, he said, " 'You will not surely die' " (v.4). In the same way, Universalism touts: "Has God said there is eternal death if you reject His Word? You will not surely die."
end quote
So here David is using what the serpent said to Eve and claiming that Universalists are doing the same, whereas Universalists are actually drawing attention to the scripture when they make their claims - and universalists don't say, "you will not die" either - on the contrary we will ALL die (except those who are changed 1 Cor 15 v 51) - even Christ Died and we will ALL be raised or vivified, I refer again to 1 Corinthians 15 v 22-28 which in summary tells us, Christ is raised First, then those who are the "dead in Christ" (Believers) and then everyone else. It's actually the Traditional church that often speak of a "living hell" the Bible says that all our souls go to Hades when we die, Jesus went there, believers go there and unbelievers go there going to Hades is likened to going to sleep see Psalms 13 v 3, Daniel 12 v 1-2, John 11 v 11-14.
Prior to and in between David's scripture references above David makes huge unsubstanciated claims about what Universalists are said to believe.
Reference #3,4,5,6,7 and 8
Begin quote
Jesus spoke more often of hell than he did of heaven. He said, "'Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it'"(Matt. 7:13). The Bible describes hell as a place of darkness and a furnace of fire (see Matt.8:12; 13:42), an everlasting burning for punishment of sin (see Is. 33:14), a bottomless pit (see Rev.20:1) and a place where rest is unknown (see Rev. 14:11).
end Quote
Firstly Hell is mentioned in the authorised Bible 14 times and at least 150 times heaven is mentioned, so this first statement is entirely wrong, Matthew 7 v 13 does indeed say that many will go to destruction via the broad way. but destruction is not the end for those that do. Sodom was Destroyed in Genesis 19 but in Ezekiel 16 v 55 it was "restored to it's former state" but apollumi which is the Greek word for Destroyed is not always translated thus "the lost sheep" of Luke 15 v 4 is actually the same word - lost has been translated from apollumi now the "lost" sheep might well have been called the destroyed sheep - either way it was recovered restored or found so destruction is not the final thing David wants us to think it is.
We should remind ourselves that David is trying to tell us about Hell, he next says that "hell is a place of darkness and a furnace of fire" but if hell was a place of darkness how could fires burn and it remain a place of darkness(?) lets look at David's scripture references Matthew 8 v 12 has no reference to "hell" or hades, this is a reference to those outside the kingdom of heavens (v 11) it's also a warning to "sons of the kingdom" not to unrepentant heathens, in Matthew 22 v 2 - 14 we have more on the "kingdom of heavens" in relation to a wedding" it says v 11 says "the king, entering to gaze at those lying back at table, perceived there a man who has not put on wedding apparel. and he is saying to him, 'Comrade, how did you enter here having no wedding apparel?' yet he was still. Then the king said to the servants, 'binding his feet and hands, cast him out into outer darkness.' There lamentation and gnashing of teeth. for many are the called, yet few are the chosen." here again the man apperently belongs at the wedding but is thrown out into darkness because he has not covered himself correctly in the darkness he laments (moans) and is gnashing his teeth (surely a sign of anxiety), the same phrase is in Matthew 25 v 26 - 33 this time we read about a "slothful slave" and ends with him being cast out and "all nations" being gathered and "severing them one from another" again in Luke 13 v 28 and again the association with Abraham and Issac and Jacob and the prophets and we have David's other reference Matthew 13 v 41 - 43 read "The Son of mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, and they shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the just be shining out as the sun in the kingdom of their father. who has ears to hear, let him hear! v 49 has more evidence that this is not speaking of Hell where we read "Thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon. the messengers will be coming out and they will be severing the wicked from the midst of the just and they shall be casting them into the furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth. do you understand all these things? so these are those who belong in the kingdom of heaven being called but are not chosen. So again these scriptures have nothing to do with their ultimate fate and they are clearly targetted at some Jewish believers (seeing Abraham Issac and Jacob) who on realising that they got it wrong (not properly covered) found themselves outside the wedding in darkness where they weep and are anxious for a time.
Next we have Isaiah 33 v 14 again this verse it's claimed by David has to do with Hell - for that to be the case the Hebrew word "sheol" should be present somewhere in the text - but surprise, surprise, it is not there in fact shoel is not mentioned in the whole of Isaiah 33 - so what right has David to associate any words in this text with hell?
David's next text is revelation 20 v 1 where he claims hell is called a "bottomless pit" all pits have a bottom however, if they didn't they could not be a pit a pit with no bottom would be somewhere where you could presumably fall forever (unharmed) - it is so clearly a mis-translation - but he does not see that - surely you can see that no pit can be "bottomless" dear reader? Revelation 20 v 1 when properly translated actually reads And "I perceived a messenger descending out of heaven, having the key of the submerged chaos and a large chain in his hand." so is this a reference to hell (hades)? - emphatically no - this is a place reserved for "the Adversary and Satan" (v 2) and these verses tells us a lot about what will happen in verse 5 we read "the rest do not live until the thousand years should be finished, in other words they are in hades because that's where the dead souls go and dead souls don't feel anything "they sleep" (Psalm 13 v 3, Daniel 12 v 1-2, John 11 v 11-14) only while a soul lives can you torment it (2 Peter 2 v 8)
and then we are told by David that it's "a place where rest is unknown" he claims this is what Revelation 14 v 11 says - not withstanding that I have already shown that hades is likened to sleep - which actually is rest - lets look at what this scripture actually says and refers to
"The fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons they are having no rest day and night"
Note: it's not their torment but the "fumes of there torment" fumes or smoke can be seen for the eons of the eons that's the last two eons - the next eon and the last eon they are tormented day and night but it does not say for the eons of the eons are they tormented - only the fumes are "ascending" for the eons of the eons
it would be ammending Gods word to suggest that they are tormented forever when they are only "tormented day and night"
however the evidence of their having been tormented "the fumes" is for the eons of the eons.
after these few quotes David once again resorts to his own feelings about the whole idea of universal reconciliation writing at one point "what does a non-christian gain by becoming a christian" to which I would reply much indeed, after death the life eonian a real peace with God now in the knowledge of his great love and grace.
Colossians 3 v 12 - 17 reads "Put on then as God's chosen ones holy and beloved, pitiful compassions, kindness, humility, meekness, patience, bearing with one another and dealing graciously amongst yourselves, if anyone should be having a complaint against any. According as the Lord deals graciously with you, thus also you. Now over all these put on love, which is the tie of maturity. And let the peace of Christ be arbitrating in your hearts, for which you were called also in one body; and become thankful. Let the word of Christ be making it's home in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing yourselves; in psalms, in hymns in spiritual songs, singing, with grace in your hearts to God. And everything, whatsoever you may be doing, in word or in acts, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Father, through Him."
David continues to argue that if we don't preach "the doctrine of eternal judgement" it will damage evangelism - doesn't he know that "For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." Eph. 2 v 9 - grace is from God - it's always from God - we can't conjure it up God will save all - that's His will - that's His purpose - but He will do it His way - if God has called you to evangelise then do it - but don't you dare be proud and boastful about how many YOU saved or who got saved by YOUR preaching, God will save all and some will believe and have life eonian after hearing the words from your mouth but hasn't paul rightly said in 1 Corinthians 3 v 6 "I plant, Apollos irrigated, but God who makes it grow up." Paul and Apollos were merely servants through whom you believe. would God's purposes be thrawted if Paul and Appollos were not serving God? of course not - but God opened their eyes and used them.
next we have a section entitled "Arming your congregation to combat Heresy (there's that word again which means it's not in the Bible)
David continues "the best way a pastor can prepare his congregation to confront the heresy of universalism is to teach what the Bible really says about heaven and hell."
Exactly what David says is the problem with Universalism is the problem with his teaching however, lets look at his references which will "confront the heresy of universalism" and "arm your congregation".
Quoting the article again
1. Jesus made both repentance and faith prerequisities for forgiveness "'unless you repent you will all likewise perish'"(Luke 13 v 3) "'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in the gospel'" (Mark 1 v 15)
end quote
quite right but as I already said this just means everybody will repent because all men will be saved and here are the scripture verses which confirm this.
"We rely on the living God who is saviour of all men - especially of those who believe. these things be charging and teaching" 1 Timothy 4 V 10 - 11
and
The Lord is not tardy as to the promise(see verse 2 Peter 3 v 4) as some are deeming tardiness, but is patient because of you, not intending any to perish but all to make room for repentance. 2 Peter 3 v 9
Every scripture fits - no contradictions (remember Titus 1 v 9)
Quoting the article again
2. The "water of life is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. "whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely" (revelation 22 v 17).
end quote
No point is made only this verse is quoted, so "your congregation" has to guess at why this speaks against "the heresy of Universalism".
Quoting the article again
3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgement after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this judgement (Heb 9:27).
end quote
Yes and after judging comes life eonian for beleivers and then the consumation when God saves all and having put all things in subjection under Christ he becomes ALL in all 1 Cor. 15 v 28
Quoting the article again
4. Those who have not had a true conversion will experience a judgement for sin that the Bible describes as "the second death." "'but the cowardly, unbelieving, aboninable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death'" (Rev 21 v 8).
end quote
This phrase "true conversion" is not in the bible so does David agree that that makes him a heretic(?) those judged are the unbelievers not the people who haven't had a "true conversion" I have to repeat myself - the second death takes place before death is abolished - there can be no more death after "the last enemy is abolished: death" 1 Corinthians 15 v 26.
Quoting the article again
5. Jesus spoke of a terrible place of judgement for those outside His kingdom rule. "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13 v 41-42).
end quote
this one we covered earlier, still nothing here to do with the ultimate fate of all. only a snapshot of a point in time where those outside the kingdom lament, like the once lost(destroyed) sheep which the Good Shepard goes to find. Luke 15 v 4
Quoting the article again
6. Scripture teaches that there is an unending, eternal judgement for those who do not know God and who do not respond to the faith to the gospel. "The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thes. 1 v 7-9
end quote
Interesting use of the word "scripture" here because as we know "scripture was written in Hebrew and Chaldean (section of Daniel) and Greek, David uses the word scripture then quotes from an English bible. I will re-iterate what I have said before on this subject Greek "eon" can't be "ever" as it is "translated" in most of the bibles written in English anybody with a basic undertsanding of Maths knows that you can't add to eternity eternity defines a number which is impossibly large how many times can you take 0 from 1 answer infinity if eon = ever then what is eons? how is it recorded in scripture
there are 199 references to eon and eonian in the new testament but the word has been translated 11 different ways
aion or eon is translated
Ages twice
Never 7 times
Course once
Evermore 4 times
World 40 times
Eternal Twice
Ever 72 times
aionios or eonian is translated
Eternal 42 times
World 3 times
Everlasting 25 times
Ever Once
Can you see dear reader, how this word from Scripture has been damaged by our English bibles?
If you restore the true meaning of eon then you don't have a problem understanding that times eonian will reach a "consumation" (end) 1 Cor. 15 v 23
Quoting the article again
7. Jesus emphatically taught that spiritual birth is essential to entering the kingdom of heaven. "'most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he can't see the kingdom of God'" (John 3 v 3)
end quote
I agree and your point is David(?)
I will reiterate a mathmatics arguement
let's say
X + Y = 5
X x X = 9
what is Y ?
if you understand maths you'll already know the answer is 2 if not I can explain it to you but whether you understand or don't understand Y does = 2
here is why
we are told X times itself = 9 so therefore X = the square root of 9 = 3
we are told that X + Y = 5
we know X = 3 so therefore 3 + Y = 5
if we take 3 away from both sides of the equation we have our answer
3 + Y - 3 = 5 - 3
therefore Y = 2
so we just deduced from the facts presented what Y must be
so if we know because the bible says that "we must be begotten anew to perceive the Kingdom of God" John 3 v 3
then whatever else we find out about the Kingdom of God this fact doesn't change
but remember this verse is speaking about "the kingdom of God"
there is a tendency for all of us to try to over simplify the things of God
Unlike the equation above where we start with only 2 unknowns - the scriptures have many apparent unknowns which we use endeavor to unravel
2 Timothy 2 v 15 says "Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth."
finding out that X = 3 did not mean that all unknowns had the same answer
salvation is not the same as the kingdom of God
compare the verses relating specifically to salvation with those relating to "the kingdom of God" and you'll find out many different things relating to both
yet all over the internet and in Christian publications you find many different scriptural phrases talked about as though they are interchangable
there are many references to "Kingdom of God"
but if you read enough of them you'll see they refer to the place where Jesus reigns and we believers serve
whereas this has not to do with God's ultimate salvation of all and purpose for all, salvation references always are inclusive to all
from this we should realise that the kingdom of God is something different from salvation and why shouldn't it be different if it was the same it could be called the same
WE MUST "CORRECTLY CUT" THE WORD OF TRUTH
the only reason I know what I've just told you dear reader is that I've looked at enough bible references in a concordantly translated version to see this distinction - if you don't have a concordant translation - then a regular bible with a Good concordance like Strongs or Youungs will do but it'll just take you a bit longer to reach the same conclusion.
Dear reader - next time you read a "Christian" website or article in a magazine - scrutinize it carefully - not to judge the writer - that's not my objective here - but to have the word of truth correctly cut, each part in it's proper place each part applying to it's intended application
Quoting the article again
8. Jesus gave no indication that there are many roads to God. Rather, He forcefully stated that He was the one and only way. "'I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me'" (John 14 v 6).
end quote
If any man says that there are "many roads" as David puts it what does that mean? I believe that God is the saviour of ALL 1 Tim 4 v 10 - how is that "many roads"(?)
Quoting the article again
9. According to Jesus, only those who receive Him and believe in Him are children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name (John 1 v 12).
end quote
This verse and verse 13 should read as follows "Yet whoever obtained Him, to them He gives the right to become children of God, to those who are believing in His name, who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God.
So we obtained Him by his will (not mans)
the same word "obtained" is used in 1 Cor. 4 v 7 "...Now what have you which you did not obtain? Now if you obtained it also, why are you boasting as though not obtained?" whether unbelievers are ever called "children of God" is not the issue the issue is the undeniable truth that God will be ALL in All 2 Cor. 15 v 28 and will save all because that's what he wills 1 Tim 4 v 10 , 1 Tim. 2 v 3 and 4 what we obtain is by grace. John 6 v 65 "..no one can be coming to Me if it should not be given him of the Father."
Quoting the article again
10. Rather than teaching that those without faith in Christ are already saved, the Bible teaches that they are already under judgement. Faith in Christ brings us out of condemnation and into right relationship with God. "'He who believes in Him is not condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'" (John 3 v 18).
end quote
What David fails to see is that Bible believers like me and like those he calls universalists know and believe that all these judgements will take place just like "the Bible" says they will - what David doesn't say is how the verses I quoted at the start of this page fit with his Gospel
If honestly approached even from a translation which doesn't concordantly translate every Greek word as the Concordant Literal version does, any believer can see that these eons have ends (Hebrews 9 v 26) and beginnings (Hebrews 1 v 2) once you see this then scriptures below make sense and fit with other scripture
Romans 5 v 18 and 19 which says ALL Justified "..for all mankind for life's Justifying.."
Colosians 1 v 16 - 20 which says all reconciled "..and through Him to reconcile all to Him.."
1 Corinthians 15 v 22-26 which say all vivified (that is made alive) "..thus also in Christ shall all be vivified.."
1 Corinthians 15 v 27-28 which says all subjected " .. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)"
1 Corinthians 15 v 28 which says all in all as just quoted.
put simply people who believe that God's "gospel is inclusive" as David Shibley put's it in his article do so because the scriptures are full of evidence which says that God wants to save all the world why the most famous passage of scripture of all starts with John 3 v 16 saying "For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only begotten Son, that everyone believing in Him should not be perishing, but may have life eonian. (v17) For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him.
so here we see the three classes of People
God's Son - The Man Christ Jesus 1 Tim 2 v 5 "For there is one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus, who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all.."
Those that believe and have life eonian (John 3 v 16)
and those whom he judges and saves the world (Kosmos) or everything created (John 3 v 17)
I find it very sad that David would deny so much scripture and turn one scripture against another, to attempt to show that God doesn't want to save all, and in his mind, won't save all which is clearly what he believes.
David's article continues with few more references making man made objections to combat his belief that God's Love is not sufficient to save all. Let God's word the scriptures alone be our guide. David accuses believers in the word of God like me, saying that we don't believe God's word. even though everything I believe is in the Bible. Whilst at the same time demonstrating that he doesn't by his own words, unsubstanciated by scripture and anti scripture.
Here are things that David Believes and states in his artical which truly are heretical because they aren't in the bible
David writes in favour of his position as follows.
1."the more likely it is that people can be saved without missions the less urgency there is for missions"
The Bible says "..the living God is the Saviour of all mankind" 1 Timothy 4 v 10
2. "Gospel of Inclusion... an old heresy"
the bible says
Romans 5 v 18 and 19 which says ALL Justified "..for all mankind for life's Justifying.."
Colosians 1 v 16 - 20 which says all reconciled "..and through Him to reconcile all to Him.."
1 Corinthians 15 v 22-26 which say all vivified (that is made alive) "..thus also in Christ shall all be vivified.."
1 Corinthians 15 v 27-28 which says all subjected " .. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)"
1 Corinthians 15 v 28 which says all in all as just quoted.
3."Edwards is widely acknowledged as one of the greatest mindsAmerica ever produced."
The Bible says "Then He(Jesus) opens up their mind to understand the scriptures..."
4."there is an eternal heaven"
The Bible says
there are heavens (plural) 1 Colossians 1 v 20 "and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens."
also in Mark 13 v 31 we read "Heaven and Earth shall be passing by, yet My words shall by no means be passing"
Nowhere does the bible say there is an "eternal heaven" and as David reminds us that makes "eternal heaven" a heresy
5."It's time to take a stand - a stand that squares with the Bible and the Church's historical position"
The Bible says Rev. 22 v 18 and 19 "I am testifying to everyone who is hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If ever anyone may be appending to them, God shall be appending to him the calamitities written in this scroll. and ever anyone should be eliminating from the words of this prophecy, God shall be eliminating his part from the log of life, and the holy city, that is written in this scroll.
we don't need "the church's historical position"
stop "appending" (adding) to God's word, David..and stop ignoring those scriptures which state clearly what you want to reject ("eliminating" them)
6."Jesus tasted death for every person and reaches the wrong conclusion (therefore everyone is saved)."
The Bible says 1 Timothy 4 V 10 "We rely on the living God who is saviour of all men - especially of those who believe."
Jesus Died he didn't "taste death" tasting death is figurative like in Matthew 16 v 28 "Verily I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances should be tasting death till they should be perceiving the Son of Mankind coming in His Kingdom"
7. "but as ministers of Jesus Christ, we are not authorised to ammend scripture"
The Bible agrees but adds that we should not be ".. eliminating from the words of this prophecy.." also
perhaps this is the biggest flaw in David's argument, not that he proclaims God's word
but he considers Church History of equal importance (thus ammending Gods word),
and that he excludes parts of God's word which he doesn't like (thus eliminating it)
I refer again to Rev. 22 v 18 and 19
In the whole of David Shibley's article he doesn't mention God's Grace even once, so let's remind ourselves about God's Grace for a moment before I finish this piece.
Grace = from route Char'is or Char i t o' o = Joy
or Char' is ma = Joy-effect
or Char iz' o mai = Joyize
David talks about Faith as though it is man that has to generate it, he writes "and if faith in Christ is the only way to salvation(and it is),what could possibly be a higher priority than getting the gospel as far as we can as fast as we can?"
The Bible teaches "For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them."
and what gospel will be preached(?)
again "We rely on the living God who is saviour of all men - especially of those who believe. these things be charging and teaching" 1 Timothy 4 V 10 - 11
when was the last time David was "charging and teaching"
that we can "rely on God who is the savior of all men"(?)
Ephesians 4 v 7-14 "Now to each one of us was given grace in accord with the measure of the gratuity of Christ. Wherefore He is saying, Ascending on high, He captures captivity And gives gifts to mankind. Now the "He ascended," what is it except that He first descended also into the lower parts of the earth? He who descends is the Same Who ascends also, up over all who are of the heavens, that He should be completing all. And the same One gives these, indeed, as apostles, yet these prophets, yet these evangelists, yet these as pastors and teachers, toward the adjusting of the saints for the work of dispensing, for the upbuilding of the body of Christ, unto the end that we should all attain to the unity of the faith and of the realization of the son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the statue of the complement of the Christ, that we may by no means still be minors, surging hither and thither and being carried about by every wind of teaching, by human caprice, by craftiness with a view to systematizing of the deception.
If I know God or am used by God in any way it is because I was given grace - grace worked in me to produce faith and love, and works in me to do what "God makes ready beforehand"
Paul's message to all he wrote to was that the Grace of God be with them
it's at the beginning of virtually all his letters and at the end.
and it was his pray for us, as it is from me to all who will read this.
Grace to you from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
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